Jan 23, 2022 • 43M

Fetish Model and Pro Cuddler Fiesty Feminista on Professional Erotic Work

Open in playerListen on);
Interviews about the role sex, sexuality and all-things-eros have played in people's spiritual identities and practices. This podcast especially centers the stories of queer folks and sex workers.
Episode details

Fiesty Feminista thinks we should rename sex work to erotic work to truly encompass the work that providers do. In this episode, we talk about that and more.

Fiesty is a fetish model, session wrestler, and professional cuddler who uses her public persona to spread feminist messages and the importance of a connection with nature.

Fiesty tells her story, from being raised in the Catholic church to becoming a social activist in NYC to how she got into professional cuddling.

Follow Fiesty on Instagram @_madam_nomad_

Follow Jera on Twitter: @thejerabrown or Instagram: @thejerabrown
Email: jera@jerabrown.com


Fiesty  00:00

Sex is just like this very primal instinctual thing that we do to procreate. Like, that's all that is. When it becomes erotic, that's when it becomes spiritual.

Fiesty  00:11

You know, I've had people... it's like, they want to have penetration, because that's all they know.  It's like whoa, let's explore a little bit like, do you know that you can feel good without putting your penis in a vagina?

Jera Brown  00:30

I am talking to someone that I just absolutely love. And I've been so grateful to have this person in my life over the past year. I'm talking to Feisty Feminista. And we met about a year ago, I think, because we both do session wrestling and boxing, and acts of strength for clients. And we also film and we've had the opportunity to film together a lot recently. And in the middle of all this, we end up having just amazing talks about feminism, and serving clients in a holistic way and so many things. So I wanted to bring her on the podcast to talk about what it's like being Feisty, how she became Feisty, and what it means in terms of her spiritual and sexual journey. So welcome Feisty to Lefthanded Journeys.

Fiesty  01:23

I'm so honored to be asked to come and talk to you about those thing for real. I really do appreciate being able to have these conversations, it's helping me to, you know, just to think more. Sometimes I forget, and I'm just going through life and not realizing how, unintentionally intentional I've been.

Jera Brown  01:50

I feel the same. Like we've talked a lot about like racism in the industry in ways that I just, I haven't done enough thinking about, you know, and I don't have those conversation partners. But let's start way earlier. I stole have this question from On Being which is safe podcast and the host always starts by asking folks what are your spiritual roots? Like, where did you start?

Fiesty  02:20

You know, when you say spiritual, like, it just makes me think back to, like, I think religion at first because I don't ever remember feeling or like being taught about spirituality in general, or like my own spirituality when I was young. I was just raised as a Catholic. And like, that was my spiritual introduction. And I know now that there wasn't much spirituality in that. It was more about structure and control, and, you know, white supremacy and patriarchy and sexual repression and that kind of thing. And so, you know, I made my sacraments, I'm baptized, and I made my communion and I went to a Catholic school for sixth to eighth grade, and I made my confirmation and penance. You know, I asked God, white God, to forgive me for my sins. And when I was like, in eighth grade, I decided like, this doesn't make any sense. Who is this god they speak of, you know? And I kind of just gave up on this structured Catholic religion that I was in.  And I really didn't, like... I know other people who went on and explored other religions, once they decided that, you know, Catholicism, or you know, let's say, Judaism, or Islam wasn't for them. But I didn't do that. And only now as an adult have I been introduced to people who have studied other faiths. So let's say, like Buddhism, or Taoism, you know, or Hinduism. And then when you think about something like yoga or tantra, that's what's more introduced me to the spiritual aspects of myself. You know, I took a yoga class for the first time in a long time the other day, and I'm going through a very...  a friend of mine has experienced something very traumatic and so it's been a heavy week. And I'm in this class, sweating and crying. And if felt so good! Because I'm realizing, you know, that like, this is just some flesh that I'm inhabiting and you know, I can use my mind to manipulate that body and make it do incredible things, and elevate myself to the point where I can connect with beings outside of myself, you know. And so yeah, I feel these days, I feel the most spiritual when I'm in nature, when I'm like sitting here outside, looking at the roses and watching the bees, and they're pollinating, and I'm feeling the sun on my skin, and the wind. Like to me, that's where we could all be, you know. And I want to experience more of that in my life. So that's why I decided to be on the road most of the time. Because I think being outdoors is where I feel the most spiritual.

Jera Brown  05:56

When did that start? When did you start traveling so frequently.

Fiesty  06:02

My dad always used to take us places when we were kids, not like out of state or anything, but he always liked to... you know with my mom, we would just stay in our neighborhood, and, you know, play with the friends of the area, and my dad would take us to Manhattan, or to Long Island, or maybe we would go to Jersey or something like that. And, you know, I don't remember even exactly what we were doing. But it was just like, let's get out and explore. So he kind of instilled that in me. And when I was a kid, my grandparents used to go camping. So I used to love that, because I'd go fishing with my grandpa and be outside in the wilderness. And yeah, I mean, it was a campground. So it's not like we're hiking or doing rugged camping. But still it was different than being in Queens, New York. And so I think I held on to that too. And I did a little bit of travel when I was like in my early teens. And then in my mid 20s I started traveling for school. And I had done a study abroad program on the border of Haiti and Dominican Republic. And that's what really made me realize that I'm extremely privileged for being born in the United States. And just that my world is so tiny that I'm living in and that if I really want to learn anything I have to go out and meet other people and go to new places where everything's different. It was very humbling for me. And so that was the beginning of my international travels. So after that, I ended up going to like... I went to Egypt with a class and then I was in Costa Rica, I went to Jamaica, I went to Puerto Rico. I ended up by myself backpacking a few years later. I just kind of took off after packing up and moving from Harlem, in New York City, to the desert of New Mexico, where I was at for about a year, and then I started international travels again. And so I backpacked through Mexico, Guatemala, Belize, Honduras. And then I ended up taking a trip to Cuba. Where else did I go? I ended up in Europe. I went down through Morocco. Where else am I forgetting? I was out east right before COVID hit. And I'm really ready to do some more international travels. But since I couldn't do that, and I had this new job, which required me to travel, you know, all over the country I just figured, why would I fly everywhere and just stay in hotels? Like, I can make an extended road trip. And so I think it was... what are we in 2021 now? I think it was like the summer of 2019. I bought a van and I just started driving with no real like destination. And yeah, I was able to like sort of live in that van. So that was pretty cozy. And then I switched to a more fuel efficient vehicle. So now I have a Prius, and just continue driving, and so... I would like create some adventure around my work. So I would go to a city that I knew I was going to be in a hotel, and I would see some clients and then I would find out what was really cool around there and then I'd go explore that. So I would go from being in a you know, a very cushy Hilton to sleeping in my tent or even in my car which was cool. But I got to see the most beautiful places and just explore my country. Like I know talk a lot of trash about this place and the privilege which we're all ignorant of here, but I got to meet a lot of cool people that I never thought I would and I got to be in nature in like the most beautiful places that I have ever seen, you know, and so drastically different too. From deserts, to forest to shore lines. It's been amazing. I love chasing waterfalls, hot springs, nude resorts, and sunsets, that's my favorite thing. I just love to see a beautiful sunset, it makes me... it's just like a great way to wrap up the day.

Jera Brown  10:23

Yeah. So I want to get into telling folks about our industry, because I think it's a little different. But I wanted to say that I think it seems like for you that going back to nature, is one of the ways that you ground yourself, right? In an otherwise, really intense career. Is that true?

Fiesty  10:43

Yes, bring myself back to reality, because, you know, I spend a lot of time serving others. And a lot of time, like sitting behind a computer screen, or, again, being in a hotel room. Just just putting a lot of my energy towards this sort of, you know, artificial aspect of my life. And then it's nice to go back to sit on the edge of a mountain and play my guitar as the sun goes down. It's like, oh, right, I remember who I am.

Jera Brown  11:17

Right? Yeah. So really, I should have done this at the beginning because most people are not gonna know what a sessioner is. And like how it differs from various other types of, you know, whatever you want to call it, adult work, sex work. So to me, I think, like, I learned about sessioning from somebody that's been on the show before, Venus, who had a lot of boxing clients on a phone sex site, and I learned through these clients that people will pay me to box them in hotel rooms, usually wearing some sort of like, swimsuit or something. But sessioning often is like either people that are wrestling or boxing, or, like in some way physically dominating a customer. And because of that it can be sexual, but it's like the sexuality of it is really different, right? And a lot of the people that do this work will really go around the country, seeing clients in this way, often also film with each other. So film these, like fetish oriented, physical clips with each other. And I think because of this, they also tend to travel more than other industries. Like travel more than the escorts or the pro-doms like, because it's so niche, like, you end up seeing a few clients, and like you film with a few other models from place to place, and you're just traveling constantly. That to me is what sets it apart. Like how else would you describe the sessioning world?

Fiesty  13:02

Wow, how to describe it? Yeah, I mean, like, it's hard. Um, you know, I have a bachelor's degree in sociology. So, I like to think that I'm using that in the work that I'm doing now. Except I get to make a lot more money than I would be if I was, you know, working for some kind of nonprofit organization. And I feel like I'm helping people just as much as I would be if I was doing that other work as well. I think it's great, because, it's something that's so... no one knows about. It's extremely underground. I feel like it might even be more frowned upon then just general sex work. I think it's very psychological. And I think it has a lot to do with, like, the patriarchal system that we live up under. And that's why like our strength has been... like women's strength or feminine strength has been suppressed, or has tried to be suppressed for so long. That here I am able to explore that and express that with these guys. It's like, it's a dream come true! Honestly. I think it helps every party that's involved. I feel honored that I get to do this as my work you know. Like I've just always been a bold, big person full of, as they call, passion. And so it's really awesome that I get to express that in a constructive way and call it my job.

Jera Brown  14:54

Totally. And a lot of the clients then, you know, have always been interested in or attract to stronger women, larger women, whatever. Which is countercultural. So the industry is hidden. And oftentimes there's a lot of like, shame or suppression of these desires, because it's not something you're supposed to have... I am outside Denver right now, and I have not adjusted to the altitude. So I'm like I gotta breathe!

Fiesty  15:30

Yes, deep breaths!

Jera Brown  15:33

You got into this a little differently. I mean, I think we all got into it in different ways. But you want to talk a little bit about how you got into it. And like, how you started with cuddling?

Fiesty  15:43

Yeah, I mean again, like, sometimes in my life, I feel like things just happen by accident. And I'm just like, following these signs. Much how when I'm traveling, sometimes I don't even know where the hell I'm going. I'm just like, wandering a little bit, and just following some intuition. And I find the most beautiful places. Like, it seems like, "Oh, this is what I was looking for and I didn't even know it." So, you know, I was like a hardcore activist in New York City, and living with a partner at the time. That's how he and I had met, trying to change the policy of stop and frisk in New York City, where they were disproportionately targeting people of color. And so we really wanted to stop that policy. And in some ways we did. And we were like, pioneers of creating this idea of filming the police. They even created a poster about us, calling me a professional agitator, which I am, I'm sure. I don't get paid to be an agitator but...

Jera Brown  16:52


Fiesty  16:53

Now I do! But so we were doing that in New York, and we just felt like, Okay, this is... you know, we're getting arrested way too much. And this is way too risky. Let's connect back to nature, let us do the things that we are preaching for, which is getting back to a simpler life, and growing food and building our own things. You know, building our own home, and whatever, and like walking more and consuming less that kind of thing. And so we moved out to New Mexico, and I stayed there for a few years doing just that, and I was pretty broke, and I really didn't have a need for money. So I wasn't really thinking about it. I had all the things that I needed. And I would, you know, I'd be online and, you know... you go in and check in with family and you go on Facebook, and you're just trying to keep people updated and post all the cool things that we're doing, like building a home out of mud, and, you know, scrap wood and bottles and cans, and I kept seeing this ad for becoming a professional cuddler. And I'm like, "What is this?" you know, and I would just exit out because it just looked like some silly ad. And after several times of seeing it, finally, I was like, let me just check it out. And I signed up as a professional. And I started getting all these requests. And I'm like, are you kidding me, people want to pay me to hug them? This is amazing! I love hugging! I love to cuddle! And that's how I started. Like the site that I was on, I didn't need any kind of certification. I'm just really good at it. And I met up with a few people in New Mexico. And then when I went back home for the holidays, it was like even more business out in New York. And it made me realize how many people are deprived of that physical touch from another human. And I was really happy to be able to provide that for people. However, you know, sometimes people would want to do more than just platonic cuddle, which means like, you know, we have all of our clothes on this is not sexual in any way. We're talking. We're just feeling each other's bodies. Because in the society, we're deprived of that, you know, people barely touch each other anymore. And so when I realized that people wanted to do more things with me, I remembered some things I had done in my previous life, like working at a dungeon. And I thought, well, what else? What else do folks want to do? What other ways do they want to use their body? And what other ways are they deprived of touch, and not able to explore their fantasies? And that's how I stumbled upon session wrestling, like literally just a Google search of like, like sex... I don't even remember what I was searching for "sex work" or "adult industry" or that kind of thing. And I just stumbled upon it. And I'm like wrestling? Oh, interesting. Guys want to wrestle me. That's cool. And I worked with somebody in New York, and then she introduced me to the session girls website. And it was just like, my life was changing, right? In that moment, I had no idea that it was even happening. And, yeah, I did that for about a year, I would just, you know, meet folks. I had no wrestling experience. I had some boxing experience. And I just went with it. And my clients taught me along the way, and I would watch videos. And the person I was working with in New York, she taught me some moves, not too much. Mostly just all self taught. And then it was about a year into doing that, when I discovered, or when I found out about the event that was happening out in Vegas. And that's when I first met any other women who were session wrestlers. Then that was a whole other awakening. Like, wow! I can work with these women. So we can have... we can see clients together. And we can make videos together. And we can travel together and train each other and mentor each other and bring other people into it. And it just felt like I was part of this really cool underground secret society of badass women. And it's growing, and I love it.

Jera Brown  21:11

That's awesome. Yeah, I love the community. I mean, there's something just, you have to be a specific type of person to be able to do this work.

Fiesty  21:25

Oh, for sure. Yeah you have to... oh someone's trying to call me. That's probably a client right now trying to see if I can see him in Florida. No, you just... I mean, because there's just so many elements to it. I mean, you have to have the ability to talk to people, right? Like, you know, this is about having a big personality, and being a healer, and like, not just being there for the money. You have to be strong in whatever way that is, like emotionally, or like, mentally, or just have a big body naturally, like I do, you know? I don't do much working out. Clients are like you know  "How many days a week do you work out? How long do you work out?" I'm like, I don't really. I'm just big and strong all on my own, you know, and then you have other women who do this who like, they're in the gym, you know, every day of the week, and they're working on having the look of being strong. So you have to be athletic in some type of way or strong in that way. And you have to have the ability to travel. Like not everybody can just pick up and move all over the country, you know, people have already started lives. Yeah, I think it's like a very unique mix of all these abilities and qualities that allow us to do the work that we're doing. Because I know I've tried to get other people into it, where I'm like, "Wow! You look amazing! You would really kick some ass!" you know, and they're just like, "Erm, it's not for me." Not everybody wants to be in a hotel room with a strange guy kicking his ass. But I think if they tried it one time, they would be really into it!

Jera Brown  23:09

It is intimidating. It's very intimidating.

Fiesty  23:11

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean I felt that way, when I did my first cuddle session. It was just like "I don't know who this person is." and I'm just... The first one was at this person's home. And I was just like, oh, you know, concerned about safety, and just, you know, you're meeting a stranger. So if you're not good at meeting strangers and sparking up conversation, then yeah, it may not work.

Jera Brown  23:34

Different sessioners have different levels of like, we'll just say like risk profiles, in terms of like screening, and, you know, some people rely on intuition, which is totally fine. Like, I tend to screen way more heavily. But because of that, I don't make a living seeing clients because I'm going to turn most people down. But either way, it is a very intuition led field, I think.

Fiesty  24:03

I would say so. Yeah. I'm mostly working on my intuition. And I think you and I have discussed this before, just like, you know, how, just privilege and class and race comes into this like some of us cannot afford to screen so heavily. Yeah, so that's where I'm at, like, I'm trying to retire early. You know, I'm trying to do this because I want to, and so yeah, I'm working as hard as I can while I still have use of all my limbs and the ability to move around. I would say I see most people who want to see me and I really I have had very few bad experiences and I've never had like an unsafe experience. I have not. But I do wish that there was a way for there to be more safety for sure, and to create a an easier way for, let's say someone like yourself, who does more heavily screening, to be able to do that with ease.

Jera Brown  25:04

Yeah. I feel like I have this conversation a lot in different, like religious circles... who want to talk about the morality of any kind of adult work or sex work, and I'm like, you're deciding this to be safe. You know, by setting these moral standards, you're basically saying that, like, the people that choose to do it, or have to do it for a living, don't deserve the safety measures, because of all the legislation in place that's against us, you know?

Fiesty  25:35

Exactly. Yeah, it feels very unfair in many ways. Like, yeah, just accessibility to be able to do this work in general. Like, it's really hard for me actually, to be... like, I want to be able to provide many services. And it's just really hard to do that. Because people pretend like making a law against something is going to stop it and it doesn't. It just makes it an unsafe climate for people who do choose... like, we're adults, you know, I can choose the work I want to do. Like, if you want to talk about morality and capitalism, like let's go! What is moral to sell? You know, you can sell water, but you can't sell intimacy. Like, explain that to me, you know?

Jera Brown  26:22

Yeah. So, since you've been doing this, all of the work, like it sounds like you've had a history of like... you worked in the dungeon, you did cuddling, well you still do some cuddling, seeing clients as a sessioner etc... Do you see spiritual threads in it for you? Or like does it do anything for you spiritually, and I know that that term is just super vague, like, what the hell is spirituality? But..

Fiesty  26:51

Yeah, I would say I was thinking about this. I think I feel... we were talking about spirituality and eroticism, you know, I guess I wouldn't feel like cuddling, for me is where the spirituality presents itself most. Because just when we're wrestling, it just feels very primal to me. You know, very corporal, very... it can be aggressive. You know, it can be erotic, it can, but it just feels... it's a different kind of feeling then moving very slow with someone and breathing together with them. And talking and getting to know someone. And like, putting our bodies together and moving very slowly and sometimes we'll like, hold each other's hands and we just... Yeah, I think it's a different kind of opening up that feels really good for both of us. It feels more reciprocal in that way to me. I really enjoy cuddling. It's very rejuvenating. I think we both feel like quite vulnerable. And, again, like because I feel we're so deprived of that touch it's very satisfying in that way, because we don't get it enough, you know, and that feels really good. Like, I would like to do more cuddling outside. I think that that would definitely elevate the feeling of spirituality, because I feel like I can get very close and intimate with someone very quickly, who I don't even know. Just because we're in that same headspace and that breathing together. It's like, you know, it's tantric in a way. It's a beautiful way to connect with a stranger. Yeah, I enjoy it a lot. So that's, that's the work that I'm doing that feels more spiritual to me for sure. But I think wrestling can be spiritual, too, depending on how you define it, you know?

Jera Brown  29:02

For sure. I mean, I've talked about this a lot that for me, I do a little less wrestling, but like any sort of pro-domming or the boxing that I do, the spirituality for me comes in in serving the parts of somebody that's been denied. That feels like... because it's healing work. That's what makes it feel spiritual to me.

Fiesty  29:28

The parts of someone that's been denied, yeah.

Jera Brown  29:30

Yeah. I mean, I think that makes sense for anything that you do, right? Like being denied touch is just as poignant, I guess as being denied access to this desire that you hold.

Fiesty  29:42

Yeah being in that healing space though, for sure. That's definitely spiritual. I don't know I guess those things are... Maybe to me they feel like... not opposites but they're just different parts of me. Like I guess, maybe it's just this preconceived thing that I have with like spirituality being soft and slow, and maybe more subtle or even, dare I say feminine? I don't know. And then I think, you know, I'm thinking about this word erotic. That's where the wrestling comes in for me because it makes me feel so powerful. And for me, that's me exploring the parts of myself that I've been denied.

Jera Brown  30:26

What does eroticism mean to you?

Fiesty  30:31

I guess... Yeah, eroticism to me, it means like reclaiming power. It means, you know, exploring the creative parts of myself. I think that... like I was learning about tantra recently. That it's like a meditation, it's about breathing. It's not necessarily sexual. But the western world has completely, like, took the sexual part of it and then that's what we think of as tantra. And I think the same thing happened to the erotic. And you know, someone who talks about... oh! we have a friend visiting... someone who talks about the erotic as power is Audrey Lorde. And I just love how she talks about it. Because she makes us realize that, you know, it's been warped, like, we think about eroticism as like pornography or something like that. And it's like, it's not that at all, like erotic... to be erotic doesn't mean it's sexual. It means you're pushing boundaries, you're finding yourself, like anything can be erotic, you know, just me sitting in a flower garden can be erotic. You know, it's like, exploring our senses. It's communicating with other living beings. It's finding that deep power within oneself, and I think it does feel very feminine to me. And I want to explore that more, for sure. So that's why wrestling, to me feels very erotic. Like, I've had this conversation with other people and like, they think it's sexual, what I do. And like it could be, you know, if that's the type of session that it is, and maybe that's how it feels for the other person involved. But to me, it feels erotic. It's me, feeling sexy and strong. And reclaiming this strength that a woman has in this world that we have been denied. Like, I feel so powerful! When I'm just like, even by myself alone, you know, when I'm like, putting on my... let's say, I have my wrestling shoes, or, you know, I'm putting on my knee pads. And I'm pulling them up slowly, and I'm getting dressed. And I'm, you know twisting my hair in the front, and I'm preparing myself and I'm breathing deeply like this. I'm about to allow this person to come into my space. It gives me a feeling that I've that I've never had before.

Jera Brown  33:27

Have you read Pleasure activism?

Fiesty  33:30

No, no, but it sounds like I have to.

Jera Brown  33:34

Yeah. It's a book of essays by Adrienne Maree Brown, that centers around Audre Lorde's essay “Uses of the Erotic: The Erotic as Power,” but it's all about, the politics of pleasure, and it's specifically centered around black women. Yeah, I've actually read from this before in a different podcast episode. So sorry, folks. If you listened to the Fio Gede episode, I'm gonna read it a-fucking-again! So, Audre Lorde's definition of the erotic that just blew my mind: "The erotic is a measure between the beginnings of our sense of self and the chaos of our strongest feelings. It is an internal sense of satisfaction to which, once we've experienced it, we know we can aspire. For having experienced the fullness of this depth of feeling and recognizing its power, in honor and self respect, we can require no less of ourselves."

Fiesty  34:37

Mm. "We can equire no less of ourselves" Like that... I literally have chills.

Jera Brown  34:44


Fiesty  34:45

I wish someone was here to feel my thighs right now. I have goose bumps all over, it's amazing. We can require no less of ourselves. Yes.

Jera Brown  34:56

I read that during a toxic relationship in 2019. And I just kept thinking about what does it mean to have self respect? You know, like, in the midst of my desire, and it's such a great like, litmus test? I don't know if that's the right... like, am I living within my ideal sense of self respect? And how that plays into the erotic to me is just fascinating.

Fiesty  35:24

Yeah, those words are... they just to keep echoing.

Jera Brown  35:27

Totally! Right. What an amazing person.

Fiesty  35:32

Yeah, because it just makes me think a lot about the work that I do. Because sometimes, you know, they'd like to make it seem like, oh, you don't respect yourself, if you do this kind of work. It's like, really? There's a lot of things that I do in life that make me feel like hmm... should I do this? Am I treating myself the way that I know I deserve to be treated? Maybe not. And I think this type of work can be a way to reclaim that because we are, specifically as females or femmes or women, we are erotic beings. Yeah, it makes me feel good to finally realize that and be able to turn it around and reclaim that power. So not be objectified sexually by this society. I see what they've done now. I get it.

Jera Brown  36:28

We've talked a little bit about this but I'm curious about your response, like for folks that say that, like, selling yourself is giving away that power. Selling access to your body or whatever. How do you... what's your response?

Fiesty  36:42

I feel like... I mean, yeah, selling access to your body. That seems... yeah, that seems correct to me. I don't like the idea of selling yourself... like I haven't, I mean, I'm still in charge of my my own body, like I haven't given my body away to someone else. But now they... I have no autonomy whatsoever. Everyone is doing that, like, as long as we live under, you know, a white supremacist capitalist patriarchy. Everyone is selling their services, they're selling their labor, their time, you know, giving up a part of themselves to satisfy another and to make make money, or resources, you know, so it's like, how is this different?  You know, someone who is a dancer... Ballet, like oh, my gosh, that's giving up a huge part of yourself, you know, that's like, a lot of strain on one's body and time and the mental... and it's just like, you know, artists are doing this all the time, any kind of artists, anyone who's in the healthcare industry is doing this, anyone who is a teacher is doing this, like, they are allowing others access to their mental and their physical, all the time. So, I just see this, like, as trying to control... especially because this kind of work is historically a woman's work. You know, it's just a way to like, devalue women's work, that's all. And to make it seem like men have free access to our bodies. Like no. No sir. Like you don't get to just have free access to my body. Like, I get to tell you what the terms are. I get to tell you what it's worth to me to open my mind or my legs, you know. I was thinking about, like, being being a Catholic and one of the sacraments is matrimony. And it's like, not everyone's built for that. And this is just... this is a different social contract that's all. Like matrimony is a social contract that says that, like a woman is going to be there emotionally and physically and spiritually for this male that she chose. And then he's going to give her things in exchange. She's just in a longer contract!  Mine is short term. You know, she's on salary. I'm working by the hour. So, that's all it is!

Jera Brown  39:19

It feels like a lot of the morality is centered around what we hold sacred. And it strikes me that in many ways we hold the concept of sex more sacred than we do the value of somebody's body in general.

Fiesty  39:37

Yes. I guess I don't know exactly... I think about this all the time. Just why? Why that is right?

Jera Brown  39:46

Well, I think it is wrapped up in like, Christian supremacy and white supremacy and the fact that like, because it's women's work, because it's often people of colors work and stuff like that, it doesn't matter as much, you know? Yeah, there's definitely something there.

Fiesty  40:03

Yeah, and just thinking like we... like sex and eroticism is so different, you know. Sex is just like... it's this very primal instinctual thing that we do to procreate. Like, that's all that is. When it becomes erotic, that's when it becomes spiritual. And it becomes more than just that physical sex act. And I think that's why they... like we never talked about that part of it whatsoever.

Jera Brown  40:34

Yeah, fascinating.

Fiesty  40:36

Sex, like... I'm liking this new term "erotic worker" or "erotic laborer". I like that a lot more because I feel like I do more than that. More of that than sex work, you know?

Jera Brown  40:50


Fiesty  40:51

And I guess to me, like, I just think of like, sex now... I just think it's very surface and raw. It's just like, you know, like penetration. That's what I think of when I think of sex. When I think of eroticism, it's like, orgasmic, and specifically talking about, you know, being intimate with a partner. Or even in this work, it's like, you know, I've had people, it's like, they want to have penetration, because that's all they know, about.

Jera Brown  41:16

Yeah. Right.

Fiesty  41:17

And it's like, whoa, whoa, let's explore a little bit, like do you know that you can feel good without putting your penis in a vagina? Did you know you can do that?! And that makes me feel so powerful to be able to explore those other avenues that these guys. You know because it's affecting us all. It's not just women who are affected negatively by the patriarchy, you know, or by organized religion or whatever.

Jera Brown  41:47

I'm gonna have to wrap up the wind is blowing so hard outside. I'm like what is getting blown around? Including my dogs.

Fiesty  41:55

Oh my!

Jera Brown  41:58

Thank you so much. This has been... this has been great.

Fiesty  42:01

I love it. It seems like there's more to talk about. I didn't even tell you how I became Feisty. We'll do it next time.

Jera Brown  42:06

Oh, my goodness. Yeah, that's true. For sure. Folks listening if you want a second episode, and you have questions, just please email me: Jera@JeraBrown.com and we will get Fiesty back on. Thank you so much this was great.

Fiesty  42:23

Yeah, it worked great! Thank you for making me think about these things. I'm like sometimes I just.. like I said, I'm just going through it and not really being intentional enough. It was a great exercise. So thank you.